A judge has branded a judicial review application into the use of SAS force in an IRA ambush more than three decades ago as “ludicrous” and “utterly divorced from reality”, The Times can reveal.
However, Roisin Nugent, the daughter of one of the IRA men, Tony Doris, challenged that decision, arguing that Soldier B should have paused after every shot to consider whether it was absolutely necessary to fire another one.
Ah, yes, ludicrous.
Maybe while changing each belt of ammo…
Fairly typical of the British judicial system that the daughter of a terrorist should be listened to…
She should be listened to – we want justice rather than just a “judicial” system.
OTOH she should be charged the costs of the meritless application
Justice was served when the IRA filth were shot down like dogs in the street.
Thank you Julia
I like it when people agree with me.
Tangent:
Oft reported that African PHs struggle with American hunters’ tendency to shoot, then look. It gets them killed. They have to be retrained to shoot, shoot, shoot.
‘Keep firing until it’s on the ground or you are’ is the rule with dangerous game.
Did her father follow the same routine?
“Do I need to shoot again?
Is he still moving? Yes.
Then I need to shoot again.”
Anything more than that will get you killed.
Anyone else remember Private Eye’s cover after 1988 Gibraltar operation?
“Why did you shoot him 16 times?”
“I ran out of bullets”
Tim – Here’s a ‘Quantum of solace’ for everyone to digest:
The American experiment began as an open system, porous, argumentative, and improvisational. It lived through disagreement. Its founding premise was that liberty and energy are the same thing.
The danger now is that, in pursuit of control, it has closed itself. Each institution that once checked disorder now suppresses dissent. The feedback loops of vitality have been severed. The nation has entered a state of political thermodynamics: high heat, low motion, no renewal.
If democracy is to live, it must once again accept instability as its condition — the endless dance between order and chaos that defines all living systems. It must allow the unpredictable, the dissenting, the comic, the caring — for these are the energies that hold entropy at bay.
Otherwise, equilibrium will come. And equilibrium, as the physicists remind us, is indistinguishable from death. It would be game over for democracy.
You heard it there first
People who’ve never been in danger or seriously contemplated what it would be like are full of silly ideas like shoot and pause or shoot the gun out of his hand. If you’re justified to shoot (a big if) you do so until you know the threat is extinguished.
A wise man told me “Someday, someone may kill you with your own gun, but if they do, they should have to beat you to death with it because you fired every round”.
True. Soldiers are trained to shoot to kill the enemy – even though it could be argued that a wounded man presents bigger problems to his own side, recovery, first-aid, treatment etc. than a dead one That said, a wounded man can still shoot back, hence the training.
In my indisinguished army career I was once given a sub-machine gun and one full magazine to stand between the inner and outer fences of the Maze prison while a riot was going on. Things were desperate indeed when REME helicopter mechanics were given guns. I was told that if a crowd of escaping prisoners (or were they internees?) came along I was under no circumstances to shoot them if they were unarmed and even then only after consulting the Yellow Card which contained the rules of engagement.. Obviously if thirty scary IRA men wanted to take me out they would. Then they’d have my gun. I decided to shoot anyway. But they didn’t come.
Was it a Sterling?
Btw check out the trigger discipline on Stormtrooper #2. No wonder they lost.
Of course. I’m not quite old enough to have fired a sten. I was in for SMG/SLR/LMG and a little 9mm Browning and one go of a GPMG. I was a marksman with SMG because I found a way to game the test.
Rules of Engagement – Issue 2025 Soldiers, for the use of -: Make certain you are killed in action so you will be unable to stand trial & embarrass the government.
Sorry, I agree with Roisin Nugent, Tim.
I was taught that British soldiers should NEVER have their rifle set to Super-Happy Fun Times Rambo mode, because of muzzle climb. You should ALWAYS have the switch set to semi-automatic so you can reliably put several rounds in the enemy and not waste ammo. As for consideration of the necessity of fire, if you can still see the enemy in your sights, it’s necessary to shoot him again.
I’m not sure what can be done at this stage though, unless we’re going to give those SAS boys a medal. What would Trump do?
I was never lucky enough to be given a rifle where the selector could go into Super-Happy Fun Times Rambo mode. The most fun I had was with 7.62 SLR’s with .22 barrel inserts, very large capacity magazines and a huge over supply of ammo that couldn’t be returned to the armoury.
Evidently you were taught wrongly; specialised British soldiers are trained to use assault rifles in one of their designed roles – suppressing fire. Hundreds of rounds expended; enemy destroyed; no friendly casualties; no blue on blue; no civilian casualties – it’s as if those guys knew what they were doing. Not sure if they wore beards, though.
If you’re using hundreds of rounds doing suppressing fire you have little idea what you’re doing.
On Okinawa, yes; you needed hundreds of thousands of rounds.
Indeed, but they’d never use a modified SLR in that role. Weapons that fire automatic and aren’t on a tripod don’t have as much kick so they can be more easily controlled. This means they aren’t as high velocity as the SLR and so a few more rounds might be necessary to stop an enemy.
We always joked that all you needed for protection against the SMG at 30m was a wet great coat.
First time I used a 9mm SMG naked people at 30m would have been safe provided they weren’t sitting on top of the 100ft high wall behind the target.
For the guy who coined “clown nose off”, Shirley you can pick up on tone? But yeah, I’m sure infantrymen and Super Army Soldier guys get more range time than nerds who fix the radio.
Anyhoo, you really want a GPMG or similar for suppressive fire, an assault rifle with a 30 round mag will burn through ammo very rapido and it’s hard to stay in the general region of the target without a bipod.
“Knew what they were doing” is a heroic assumption when it comes to anything military. It’s basically just school, and like school, there’s always plenty of div kids and crap teachers as well as model pupils and Miss Jean Brodies.
A fatwa on beards. A soldier who thinks he’s too badass for discipline is a problem.
and not waste ammo is the real reason the parsimonious UK Armed Forces don’t use auto. God forbid we spend an extra 50p per round when in a sandy shithole.
BTW, surely the correct time for SpecOps to stop firing is when the bad guys head resembles a canoe?
Gawd, canoeing. If I was a general, and one of my boys did that in wartime, I’d shoot him myself.
One of my mates sent me a piccy of Dead Che Guevara for “Happy Good Communist Day” the other day. The comic effect would be somewhat lost I feel if his skull was a red bouquet of blood, brains, hair and gore. Then it’d just be a shock photo ☹️
Got nothing to do with money.
Parsimony and the US military. From the early 1870s til early 1930s, US citizens were better armed than the US military.
Cowboys had Winchester repeaters. Cavalry soldiers had single-shot trapdoor Springfields. Et cetera.
In 1934, Congress passed the grossly unconstitutional National Firearms Act, which brought parity. NFA was a reaction to organized crime excesses, like the St Valentine’s Day Massacre.
A sensible judge
Whatever next?
Likely he will be drummed out of the Law Society for damaging his colleagues potential earnings.
Soldiers are betrayed by other soldiers, never mind the justice system.
IN 1974, when I was a naval cadet in the school CCF, we were sent on a field day to Deal. Unfortunately, because of Healey’s dash to the IMF, we were only allowed 6 shots each. So we did a bit of square bashing, watches a couple of recruiting films and went home…
Sadly, I didn’t get as much time with rifles as many of the commenter above, however I will say Hallelujah for a sensible judge.
On a related topic, my wife was an enthusiastic member of Amnesty until the events in 1988 referred to by Wonky. On observing Amnesty’s response, she immediately resigned her membership and has despised them ever since.
Would she have preferred it the SAS had captured him and tortured him to death as the IRA did to some of their prisoners? Will she petition the Irish Supreme Court in Dublin to try Gerry Adams (the IRA believe Dublin should control everyone in the whole of Ireland)?
Anecdata:
Gamecock has fired over a hundred different guns.
In USAF basic training in 1971, he was handed a genuine US military, full-auto capable M-15 for qualification. The instruction was, “Don’t you dare switch to full-auto!”
A jackrabbit wandered across the range, and automatic fire rang out all down the line. Gamecock followed instructions. FF what, 54 years later, and Gamecock has never experienced shooting at full auto. For 54 years he has thought, “GD, why didn’t you try it?!?!”
On bucket list.