As Chair of Fighting With Pride, the LGBTQ+ military charity, I spend much of my time talking to veterans who were dismissed from the Armed Forces because of who they were, not what they did.
Many are now elderly. Some are in poor health. All were promised, by government, that the injustice they suffered would finally be addressed.
That promise matters. And how it is delivered matters just as much.
The Ministry of Defence’s Financial Recognition Scheme (FRS) for LGBT+ service personnel was created following the Etherton Review. Lord Etherton’s conclusions were clear: the ban on LGBT people serving openly caused profound harm, and redress should be real, not symbolic. The scheme was meant to be swift, fair and humane. If you believe that the gay ban was proportionate, administrative in nature and fair, I recommend you read the review.
Yet we now see a worrying pattern. Around 50 applicants have been rejected, appealed, and lost those appeals. In many of these cases, the individuals plainly fall within the moral intent of the scheme, but have been excluded by narrow interpretations, evidential hurdles, or rigid drafting of the rules. These are not people trying to game the system. They are people for whom the system has failed twice.
This is not simply a question of fairness and compassion. It is a question of good governance. Well-designed government schemes to recognise past wrongs serve a purpose beyond individual payments. They draw a line under past wrongs. They reduce the risk of litigation. They rebuild trust between citizens and the state. When they are administered inefficiently or inflexibly, they do the opposite. They prolong harm, increase costs, and undermine confidence in public administration.
From a classical liberal perspective, this should trouble us. The state created the injustice. The state accepted responsibility for it. Having done so, it has an obligation to resolve claims efficiently and proportionately. A scheme that is technically neat but substantively unfair is not a success. It is a failure dressed up as a process.
There is a practical solution: the Secretary of State for Defence already holds broad powers over departmental schemes. A clearly defined discretionary power could be introduced, allowing intervention in cases that fall outside the strict letter of the scheme but are clearly within its spirit. This would not open the floodgates to thousands of fake gays pretending they were sacked. It would simply provide a safety valve, exercised transparently and sparingly, to prevent manifestly unjust outcomes.
Such discretion is not alien to British public administration. It exists across tax, pensions and compensation frameworks precisely because no scheme can anticipate every human circumstance. The alternative is costly judicial review, adversarial proceedings, and years more delay for people who have already waited decades. Rigid application of administrative rules that exclude obviously “good” cases undermines the very purpose of the scheme.
The irony is that inefficiency here is not frugal or wise. Each contested case absorbs civil service time, legal advice and appeal resources. A modest discretionary mechanism would almost certainly cost less than the cumulative expense of defending decisions that fail a common-sense test.
For those of us working with affected veterans, the issue is painfully simple. A scheme designed to recognise injustice loses its purpose if it replicates the very rigidity that caused harm in the first place.
The Ministry of Defence has an opportunity to get this right. Doing so would honour not only the recommendations of the Etherton Review, but also apply a basic principle of sound governance: when the state admits it was wrong, it should put things right efficiently, fairly, and without needless obstruction.
That is not special pleading. It is the minimum that justice, and good administration, require.
Boo fucking Hoo. They knew the rules. And in my experience they had to be pretty blatant* to trigger dismissal. And that puts them in the same state as anyone who lost a job ever for misbehaviour. While the MoD doesn’t seem to do enough for real veterans who are really wounded or affected there should be none for this whinging crew.
Yeah. I’m still pissed off about the way they’re having a go at Ben Roberts-Smith for doing what they sent him to Afghanistan to do; kill people.
Quire right, it’s only ‘ A scheme designed to recognise injustice‘ by judging the actions of the past against modern social mores. Why that should generate a pay-out eludes me.
All that needs to be said is ‘In the past we didn’t let gay people join. Now, we do. End of.’
There is a term for it: presentism.
They knew the rules
We’re no strangers to love?
You wouldn’t get this from any other guy!
They used to issue rum as a ration in the navy,. They don’t any more. When are we going to prosecute those *BASTERDS* who issued rum rations in the past?
Astonishingly, from 1655 to about 1850 (when it was reduced and watered-down to “Grog”) sailors were issued with 1 pint of rum (at 54.5% ABV) per day – half a pint at noon, the other half between 5 and 6pm! A quick calculation suggests that is the equivalent of 31 units of alcohol daily. The present “nanny state” recommended weekly intake is 14 units, so a “jolly Jack Tar” did something over a week’s worth twice a day. No wonder Nelson’s Royal Navy was such a feared fighting force – they were all pissed and probably therefore utterly fearless! 🙂
It was a half pint a day, issued in two quarter pints.
According to the Greenwich Maritime Museum:-
From around 1655, a pint of rum was the usual ration handed to each sailor in the Royal Navy. It was served every day, half at 12 noon and the second half at about 5 or 6pm (though the amount decreased in following years).
I would be more sympathetic if the letter T (shades of Sesame Street) had not put in an appearance.
I do not believe an efficient and focused fighting force can be at its best with Corporal Klinger in the ranks.
Some are in poor health
Is the health condition a direct consequence of their military service? If not then they should get exactly the same access to and standard of medical care as the rest of us.
It’s an appeal to pity. For unsympathetic characters. “No gays in the military” wasn’t a secret.
Klinger was trying to get himself discharged for mental illness by feigning transvestism. You still might not want him fighting alongside you, of course.
Whah. Find a better job, you vile creep. Spending time with losers is a choice.
The Ministry of Defence is virtue signaling with other people’s money.
Geez, calm down.
Doesn’t seem like it; rejecting cases that fail to meet the letter of the law indicates that they are complying with an imposition rather than enthusiastically engaging with an ideological cause.
Is this an MoD prank on queers?
My name is Ed Hall, and I chair a charity for no reward.
What’s your real name “Gamecock”?
Love,
A Vile Creep x
Sydney Sweeney.
Asking for my real name is a confession that you cannot refute what I have said.
“I chair a charity for no reward” is an appeal to pity fallacy.
Perhaps you have your name right. All else is junk.
What part of homosexuals were not allowed in the military do you not understand?
And why do you think today’s standards should be applied to people in the past?:
And why do you think giving other people’s money away is virtuous? Why is an apology – for nothing – sufficient?
Vile. Creep.
Do you talk to people irl the way you do on the internet?
Yep. It is love. Correcting people is an act of love. It takes a jerk to not tell someone when they are wrong. Y’all just want to let Mr Hall continue to believe in what he is doing? That’s not very nice.
As a British taxpayer, I believe in him taking the MoD to the cleaners.
He’s already taken you (and me) to the cleaners, all his charity’s money (well 90% of it) comes from us.
What is this dreck doing on this blog?
Ye of little faith
Is this on here as part of a settlement? Favour?
More fallout from Tim being in the Epstein files 😉
Favour….
Good for you and pleased you’re not in legal waters.
Oh, and I assume you warned him . . .
The state created the injustice
So when they said “are you a homosexual?”, it’s the state’s fault some people lied?
Lord Etherton’s conclusions were clear: the ban on LGBT people serving openly caused profound harm
And did it? Or was it like the Macpherson report – total bollocks? Idk if you know this, but British judges lie a lot. It does seem unlikely that banning trannies from the forces “causes profound harm”, but it would be interesting if there’s any evidence for this.
Yet we now see a worrying pattern. Around 50 applicants have been rejected, appealed, and lost those appeals. In many of these cases, the individuals plainly fall within the moral intent of the scheme, but have been excluded by narrow interpretations, evidential hurdles, or rigid drafting of the rules.
You should pick a couple of the most sympathetic cases, and tell their stories. People who might not otherwise be sympathetic to your argument will be more sympathetic to individuals – remember, people buy from people, and British people rightfully hate clipboard wielding jobsworths.
“You should pick a couple of the most sympathetic cases, and tell their stories. People who might not otherwise be sympathetic to your argument will be more sympathetic to individuals”
If its anything like the ‘hard cases’ the BBC and Guardian trot out when some tiny welfare cut is proposed, that would end up making those demanding special favours look like greedy c*nts.
Well, maybe. Or maybe they’ve been messed around like the Post Office Horizon victims. MoD has form for treating people shittily.
I have no strong feelings either way, just a bit of free advice to Ed based on how you get people to come around to your pov. Even people who are “homophobic” (I’m not afraid of my own house) aren’t going to be that homophobic if they hear about a countryman being treated unfairly – the gay angle won’t work on everyone, but everyone hates injustice.
Well I don’t agree there is any injustice. They joined up knowing gays weren’t allowed, so why should they get compo now because the rules have changed decades later? Its not like the rules were secret is it? No one signed on under false pretences (except the gays who pretended not to be of course).
If the government revokes a law today, does that mean all the people who were sanctioned under the old one get compo? Or is it only the gayers who get retrospective compo?
Well, the rules have changed, haven’t they?
I didn’t change the rules. But I am in favour of making the British government live up to its own rules.
Not in favour of them trying to have it both ways – bask in the warm glow of their supposed moral superiority whilst in practice screwing servicemen out of what they’re due? It’s not as if anyone in the forces got rich out of the experience.
Pay the gays. It’s only fair.
Since the government has decided (and previous governments are unable to bind the current one) to compensate those expelled from HM Forces for what was *then* deemed “sexual misconduct” it is a moral imperative that minor bureaucrats carry out the goverment’s wishes and compensate all of them instead of nitpicking in order to save 0.0000001% of the defence budget by finding ways to avoid paying a few of those affected.
Do you think the British government should be compelled to live up to its promises, or if not, resile from those promises? Publicly and openly?
I think we need to go back to letting our yes mean yes.
Re: the MoD. Ever dealt with them? Shower of cunts. I would be more sympathetic to the idea they’re trying to save us money if they had done so at any point in the past.
I was, for a change, agreeing with you – maybe your automatic reflexes assumed I wasn’t. I was saying “yes means yes”.
Never dealt with MoD, HMRC in the Brown- and post-Brown eras is bad enough.
You are right, I’m always surprised when anyone agrees with me. That’s married life for you.
So when the current government gives 16 year olds the vote, can all us oldies demand compo for not having had the vote when we were 16 & 17 then? The first GE I got to vote in was 1992, but I was 16 in 1987, so could have voted in that one under the new rules. Plus local elections too. Where’s my compo?
Beards have been banned in the British army for 100 years, but now they are allowed. Can anyone who suffered ‘harm’ in the past tap the MoD for compo?
No, it’s all bollocks and just an opportunity for a small minority to get their needed dose of me,me,me.
They knew the rules but joined up anyway.
Have to disagree with Steve here (for what may be the first time). Pay them for what?
most sympathetic cases
UK lifted the ban on gays in 2000. So ANY case, sympathetic or not, is over 25 years old. They should have gotten over it decades ago. Hall stirring them up serves no one.
The Ministry of Defence’s Financial Recognition Scheme was launched in December 2024
“like the Macpherson report” Sometimes I wonder whether I am the only man in the country who looks askance at a chap who deplores splitting society into races, tribes, and whatnot while simultaneously claiming to be the 27th Hereditary Chief of Clan Macpherson.
Macpherson wanted to make it a crime to be racist in your own home.
Creatures like that shouldn’t be allowed to be part of our society, never mind judges.
I sympathise *to a certain extent* – especially over MoD officials being unreasonably nitpicking – but I take exception to the last part of Ed Hall’s first sentence. Gay people have the option of remaining celibate, in which case the armed forces will not dismiss them. It is not who they are but what they did that led to their dismissal.
Gay people have the option of remaining celibate
A man who won’t fuck, won’t fight.
Don’t be an idiot – some of the best warriors in history were castrated as children by the Ottomans.
And where, pray tell, is the Ottoman Empire now? But don’t give the MoD any ideas.
The Ottomans got even with you by tricking you into taking Judea after WWI.
No, really, no. Castration before puberty stops male muscle development. Can be good for singing voices but not for warriors.
The Ottomans did employ slave soldiers – the Janissaries were all slaves. The Ottomans also employed eunuchs (as did the Byzantines before them). But the slave solders and the eunuchs were not the same people.
Sorry, not a historian, that was the impression I was given by the media.
Well that all went well then.
Sorry Ed, the charity sector is not exactly flavour of the month out in the real world (ie outside your liberal echo chamber) so coming on here and asking for favours for a load of people who already get special treatment under the equality laws is never going to end well.
Dear Jim,
you forgot the ” marks around charity in “the “charity” sector”
Not really, the whole charity sector is largely morally bankrupt. The few that aren’t are the exceptions, not the rule.
In Mr Hall’s case his charity gets about 90% of its money in the form of grants from the government, ie the taxpayer. Only a fraction is donated by voluntary donors. So he can have no complaints when the enforced donors (ie taxpayers like me) complain bitterly about how he is spending our money.
Bullshit!
There are millions of genuine charities (which is why some knaves think they can hide their misdeeds by pretending to be charities).
Shout out as loud as you like every time you find a fake “charity” but dio NOT imagine that the millions of geniune charities are fake.
Why millions when you can have billions?
After a few thousand, fake is expected.
There’s only 170k charities registered in England. So your ‘millions’ is only out by an order of magnitude.
Look, I know there are lots of genuine charities, I donate to some of them. But the sector as a whole, as defined by total income, is largely corrupt. The mega-business charities dominate the whole sector. And the small ones aren’t immune either. A friend of mine works in that sector, has led a few small charities. He’s under no illusions as to the nature of the industry he works in, whether big or small.
This conversation is the best laugh I’ve in a long time.
I’d like to know a bit more about those rejected cases. We had one case when I was in Germany where one bloke woke up to find one of his room mate trying to give him a blow job.
He was kicked out for homosexuality but I can’t think of any circumstances where compensation would be justified.
Bit of a shame in a way because he was quite good at his job and there hadn’t been any suspicion he was gay.
The chap would have a good claim for sexual assault, especially if his assailant has compo
Geez, you think you know someone.
I’m straight, but it occurs to me that, if you closed your eyes, you’d never know . . . . 😉
If i read this correctly, the issue has been litigated, and there is a judgement. If HMG are failing to implement that judgement (wouldn’t be the first time), please do give both example cases and a link to the judgement.
In the alternative, if the argument is that more cases should be caught by the judgement than actually are, well, back to the courts then I guess…
This struck me as a “fairness in process” post. If the State has decided to bestow largesse – or justice – on certain groups of people, it ought to be forced to live up to its published process and rules instead of allowing its individual functionaries to pick and choose.
This is a foundational conservative limited-gov principle. Individual discretion sucks as a way to run a country. Rule of law, not the rule of some guys.
Relitigating the basis for the State’s decision to do this plays right into the hands of those who wish to run gov to serve their own values.
Let’s get down to business,
To defeat
Sir Humphrey
Why aren’t they giving money out to veterans? Or those currently serving? Makes no fucking sense to give money to Fighting With Pride creeps. Decadent bullshit. And you’ll pay for it. Your military is doomed; no one will fight for you shit government.
Well, gohhhly. Good work, Mr Hall.
But this is exactly what “relitigating the basis” means. The State has somehow already arrived at a value judgment. What you’re now really saying is that that decision should be hindered, because you disagree with it.
That is exactly what a Deep State is – Individuals hindering democratically-decided principles to fit their own values and desires. You can have a Deep State on either side.
Why aren’t they giving money out to veterans? Or those currently serving?
Embrace the fantastical possibility that we live in a reality where more than one thing can be troo and valid at a time?
After thinking about it for about a second, I am unapologetically100% pro-poofter on this, and here’s why: the government opened a compo scheme for ex service people, to much well meaning ado, and it appears the affected veterans are now being clipboarded out of their promised cash by civil service rulesfare?
If that’s true – and I have no reason to assume they’re liars – nah, not right. And I don’t think we’re talking about life changing sums, for people who were underpaid in uniform in the first place. Pay em. How is this even a contentious issue? Is it because they is gay? What, promises don’t count if it’s to your male hairdresser or something? They do great haircuts tho. I would never go to a “Turkish Barbers”. Not racist, just don’t like em.
Your military is doomed; no one will fight for you shit government.
It’s not a compensation scheme (which presumably has some wider legal context), it’s a self-contained discretionary payment scheme. Applications are assessed only in accordance with the rules of the scheme.
That’s the impression given to us by Ed Hall and his charity. According to this page dated five days before his post, “hundreds” have had positive results and forty (which I suppose is “around fifty”) have been rejected.
https://www.fightingwithpride.org.uk/news/mod-presented-with-legal-challenge-over-frs-rejections/
[be cautious of the cookies choice menu, it appears to stay on accept all]
It would be nice to have full figures so we could see the rejection rate. 40 out of 915 would be quite different from 40 out of 170.
Reading between the lines (all we’ve got) it seems that the two test cases for the legal challenge involved “voluntary” departures from service. If these two were invited to fuck off in return for an honourable discharge and no blemish on their service record, then that would pose a challenge to assessors.
Dunno, just offering a reasonable scenario that wouldn’t involve malicious snivelservicing. If they accept every claim of poofter bootage without corroborating evidence then any Major Tom could be floating in a most peculiar way toward twenty or fifty thou.
A guide to the LGBT Financial Recognition Scheme
and your legal rights
https://www.fightingwithpride.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/955_Military-Leaflet_BBK_11.2.25.pdf
So you think it critical that the government be fair while paying reparations to people kicked out of the military for being gay when gays were prohibited from being in the military?
Sorry bigots, the gays win this time.
There are two separate points, here:
Gays in the military, when that was illegal;The MoD paying compo.The gays should not have been in the military, or if they were, should not have done gay stuff. They knew the rules; it wasn’t a secret. (Dunno how you deal with conscripts, though.)
The government must honour its financial commitments. If for its own hand-wringing, presentational, trendy reasons it’s decided that gays get compo, then they get compo.
So pay the bastards.
Oh and Ed: stop fucking grifting, please. It’s not nice. And drop the T, huh? The last thing any military needs is personnel constantly on expensive drugs because of self-inflicted injuries.
(National Service ended in ’63, four years before FRS coverage.)
I suppose it’s possible some gayers joined up without knowing. Young chaps suddenly crammed together into Nissen huts; rolling around in the mud; gym vaulting in PE shorts. It could illuminate hitherto mysterious corners.
I mean right now I’m listening to Club des Belugas.
From what I’ve read on the matter, poovery during National Service was tolerated as long as it was ‘out of hours’ and ‘off camp’.
There was plenty of it, especially Dover and similar ports, but miscreants were dealt with by the police rather than the military.
Wouldn’t it be magnificent if there are British civil servants who think, “This is stupid; we aren’t going to give them any money.”
I’m a bit late to this, but two comments:
1) Paying compensation to people for ‘suffering’ what was then the law of the land seems to set a very dangerous precedent.
2) Why is the ‘T’ included if this is about sexual orientation?
I had a row with a girlfriend once on this subject. We were watching The Imitation Game about Turing and his code breaking.
There’s a note at the end about Turing getting a posthumous pardon fir bumming and there were still x-thousands of cases outstanding. I harrumphed a bit and opined that Turing should never have been pardoned.
I had to mansplain that this law was not “wrong” and was introduced by a Christian minded Parliament and also for public health reasons. We do not have the right to go back in time and change laws that we today think are ‘wrong’.
This situation is the same. It also applies to all those women officers in the early 90s who got themselves pregnant and claimed compo, despite the fact they signed up to the prohibition when they joined in full knowledge of that fact.
( Also those 300 who were’shot at dawn’s – these were usually the worst cases or recidivists and may not have deserved shooting, but did not deserve pardons ).
I’m beginning to wonder if this blogpost is the result of a debate between Tim and Mr Ed. I reckon Mr Ed was talking to Tim about his problems dealing with the MoD, and made some offhand remark to the effect ‘No one could be against what we’re trying to do!’, to which Tim replies ‘Wanna bet?’ Queue this post as a social experiment.
I can’t quite see otherwise why the head of a government funded ‘charity’ that deals 100% with a govt department would think that posting about his problems on a tiny corner of the right wing (or reality based as I prefer to call it) blogosphere is going to help him one jot. If you’re having problems engaging with the machinery of government you lobby people who have some power over it, not a bunch of disparates who have not an ounce of power and think all government (and fake charities) should be deep sixed into the Marianas Trench.
Yep. Sure looks like Timmer trolled us.
Tim says above that he published the post as a favour.
Thing is, the comments section here isn’t the entirety of the readership. We know that straight up lefties visit, and occasionally we see apparently new names who comment and then disappear but seem to have been around a long time. We might be just a crusty crust. Mr Ed seems to have targetted at least some of his column toward the Tim aligned (“a classical liberal perspective”) and has gained some traction (even in this zoo) with his injustice and good governance angles. If that gets his cause some support beyond online bloviating then it might have been worth the typing. And who knows, maybe Nige looks in . . .
As to the why of the why Tim published it, that’s his business. We do know that on other issues he’s pretty sternly against these kinds of retrospective moral corrections.