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I argue that food, fuel and energy must be treated as public goods in a crisis.

They’re rivalrous, excludable, they are not public goods. Therefore they cannot be treated as public goods.

In fact, the entire problem is that they are rivalous and so cannot be public goods.

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Hallowed Be
Hallowed Be
24 days ago

I thought I caught this guy, Alvin Roth, who should know better referring to public goods carelessly i.e. mentions public goods in the context of market failure and then he immediately talks about negative externalities.

But it does look an interesting book. He uses Tim’s favourite Iranian Kidney Market example. But also blood and I did not know one of the biggest companies paying US donors for their blood, is Spanish set up initially to export blood plasma to the Spanish health service.

21.45 for the bit about public goods.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2026/05/11/353-alvin-roth-on-the-economics-of-morally-contested-markets/

Swannypol
Swannypol
24 days ago
Reply to  Tim Worstall

In the UK we are “justifiably incredibly proud” of our NHS blood donation service. All voluntary donations, no pay except for a biscuit, and the NHS makes it bloody(!) difficult to actually donate.
Which is why we dont tell anyone about buying so much blood product from the USA.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
24 days ago
Reply to  Swannypol

It’s not that simple. From Claude:

Blood plasma The UK has historically imported a significant proportion of its plasma-derived medicines (such as clotting factors and immunoglobulins) largely from the US, where paid plasma donation is legal. This became a major issue following the infected blood scandal, where NHS patients were given imported plasma products contaminated with HIV and hepatitis C in the 1970s and 80s. The UK has been working towards greater plasma self-sufficiency through NHS Blood and Transplant’s own collection programme.

Whole blood and red cells The NHS does not routinely import whole blood or red blood cells — these are collected domestically through NHS Blood and Transplant in England, and equivalent services in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The short shelf life of red cells (around 35 days) makes importing impractical for routine supply.

The exception Rare blood types that cannot be sourced domestically may occasionally be obtained from international partners — the UK has reciprocal arrangements with other national blood services for rare and unusual blood groups that are statistically very uncommon in the UK donor population.

The broader picture The distinction between whole blood (short shelf life, domestically sourced) and plasma-derived products (longer shelf life, historically imported) is an important one — it is the latter that has driven both the import dependency and the controversies around it.

Boganboy
Boganboy
22 days ago
Reply to  Swannypol

Yeah. Here in Oz they won’t accept my blood since I’ve had a quadruple bypass operation.

Hallowed Be
Hallowed Be
24 days ago
Reply to  Hallowed Be

Ha yes I acknowledge Alvin doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same as thread as the sage potato. Just excited pendantry really (my guess he switched examples in his head on examples for market failure from public goods to externalities latter easier to explain)

And of course worstall’s law came into play as i got the time stamp wrong.

sorry it was 18.45

“we talk about Markets not working well for public goods, right. So if I make some valuable commodity but if a by-product of my manufacturing process is that I pollute the air and the water that’s often not priced into what I’m selling.

jgh
jgh
24 days ago

“When this item is in shortage, treat it as not in shortage”. Yeah, that always works well.

Grikath
Grikath
24 days ago
Reply to  jgh

And declare it a “public good” , so that you can nick it off the people actually having some of those goods for your Friends The Good of All…

Marius
Marius
24 days ago

The entire problem is that the Spudtard never understands a single concept about which he rants. He is an omnimoron.

PiP Community Leader
PiP Community Leader
24 days ago
Reply to  Marius

That’s a nice turn of phrase. May I add that he’s an omnitwat?

john77
john77
24 days ago

He can argue until he is blue in the face but it won’t change reality.

Michael van der Riet
Michael van der Riet
24 days ago
Reply to  john77

Thanks for the heads up. I thought that the color balance needed adjusting.

Interested
Interested
24 days ago

He may know this – it’s unclear – but that’s not his game, anyway. He’s talking to an audience that hears ‘public good’ as though at all times it was merely the antithesis of ‘private bad’, which is something they simply believe.

Martin Near The M25
Martin Near The M25
24 days ago
Reply to  Interested

I wonder if the stupid people in his audience have their own blogs where they write nonsense for even stupider people.

philip
philip
24 days ago

It’s stupids all the way down.

Gamecock
Gamecock
24 days ago
Reply to  Interested

I think he’s lying, anyway. The commie dick thinks all should be treated as a public good ALL the time. He exploits ‘crisis’ to get his nose under the tent.

M
M
24 days ago

“treated as public goods in a crisis”

He’s Humpty Dumpty, defining words to mean what he wants them to mean. His definition of “public good” is “Has a Fat Controller in charge of rationing it out”.

Something is a public good, or not. It’s non-rivalrous. If I have it and give it to you, I still have it. About the only thing I can think of where this is true, is information.

It doesn’t change from non-rivalrous to rivalrous because you want it to.

djc
djc
24 days ago
Reply to  M

but information is excludable, so not a public good.

NiV
NiV
24 days ago
Reply to  djc

But if you entirely exclude access to it, you can’t trade it. And if you trade it, you can’t easily exclude it.

The classic examples are digital music and software, which both got pirated because once you’ve sold one copy, the person you’ve sold it to can copy it endlessly and spread it to all their mates at school.

It’s what the copyright laws are for. Books, plays, films, musical compositions, software, etc. are much, much easier to copy than they are to create. So fewer works get produced than is socially optimal because nobody can make any money from producing them. Hence we give a limited-time monopoly for them to recoup their investment, and then make them free for the benefit of mankind. It’s a crude approximation – as all non-market methods of resource allocation are – but it gives us more of the benefits of easily copyable products than we would otherwise get.

Patents for inventions and drugs are another example. Patents and copyrights are violations of the free market principle justified on the basis that invention and art are public goods.

Chris
Chris
24 days ago
Reply to  M

Fresh air and lighthouses are the classic examples. You can’t stop people using it, and there’s no point in having two (in the same place for lighthouses, obvs.) You’re forgetting “nonexcludable,” which is non-trivial.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
24 days ago
Reply to  Chris

This is a bit old now but worth a listen (my emphasis):

What role does government play in the provision of public goods? Economists have used the lighthouse as an empirical example to illustrate the extent to which the private provision of public goods is possible. This inquiry, however, has neglected the private provision of lightships. We investigate the private operation of the world’s first modern lightship, established in 1731 on the banks of the Thames estuary going in and out of London. First, we show that the Nore lightship was able to operate profitably and without government enforcement in the collection of payment for lighting services. Second, we show how private efforts to build lightships were crowded out by Trinity House, the public authority responsible for the maintaining and establishing lighthouses in England and Wales. By including lightships into the broader lighthouse market, we argue that the provision of lighting services exemplifies not a market failure, but a government failure.

https://economicsdetective.com/2018/04/lightships-public-goods-vincent-geloso/

It was a great podcast. He was an econsmics PhD student and podcasted as a hobby project, but sadly he stopped when work and family intruded.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
24 days ago
Reply to  Tim Worstall

I think you’ve retweeted him.

The podcaster goes by the name of Dr Dad on X and though he’s a good free market guy he tends to lay off the economics, which is a shame. I keep meaning to go back and listen again because they were all very good.

Bloke in South Dorset
Bloke in South Dorset
23 days ago
Reply to  M

“If I have it and give it to you, I still have it. About the only thing I can think of where this is true, is information.”

Herpes?

Last edited 23 days ago by Bloke in South Dorset
Chris
Chris
24 days ago

He thinks a public good is something that’s good for the public. Bless.

Van_Patten
Van_Patten
24 days ago

‘Here I go again on my own
Going down the only road I’ve ever known
Like a drifter (grifter perhaps more apt) I was born to walk alone..’

We have a coming physical supply crisis, and no established framework to deal with it. This crisis is as serious as COVID, and in many ways, I think it might be worse. COVID was manageable through vaccines, just as the 2008 global financial crisis was manageable through public spending, but this crisis involves physical shortage of the things our economy needs to function, and that is not going to be so easy to overcome.

The consequences will fall hardest on those least able to absorb this shock. Those on the living wage are already priced out of essential items, and that reality is not a neutral position. It is a political choice, and it was that politics that I heard on this programme.

So assuming this is true what is the practical solution? I haven’t read the whole thing yet but I am very intrigued as to how it will work. I think the one thing we can identify straight off is it will involve a high profile role for him.

A supermarket representative said I was exaggerating the crisis to come, and competition would solve the problem.

A farmer was even more simple. He said, “Let the markets rip”.

Both reflect a worldview in which markets self-correct, and people adjust, except they can’t if they don’t have the money to do so.

The man from the supermarket will still be able to afford his food and his petrol. So will the farmer. But they cannot imagine what it is going to be like for those who will be unable to do so. That is not, though, a lack of imagination. It is indifference to others, in my opinion.

So we are talking about what percentage of the population? How will the cutoff be determined? By him?

And if we let markets rip, people will die. I said that very plainly on air on the BBC, and I’m not sure that went down so well, but people died during the COVID crisis because the government failed to intervene early enough, and people already die in this country of the cold; around 25,000 people a year are thought to do so because pensions are too low. And a crisis of food and fuel this winter, and the two are likely to go together, could produce something far worse. My claim was not an exaggeration; it was a straightforward observation based upon the evidence of what is likely to happen.

Markets will not prevent these deaths when people cannot pay market prices for either food or energy, and that was the point that I was making on air.

But in North Korea, which has one of the most extensive state planning networks in the world, people die of starvation all the time. It’s an annual occurence. So giving the state control of things is in no way a guarantee of counteracting the risk. OF course I am sure with someone with Murphy’s extensive understanding of logistics we’d fare better than the denizens of Pyongyang. Anyone writes in the comments the bridge will be available on Ebay.

Also COVID deaths were dwarfed by those caused by the interventions. Hundreds of millions were killed by the consequences and dislocations entailed by lockdowns and by experimental vaccines. The deaths are still occurring.

Two of my arguments hit home in that discussion, and they are worth restating. The first was a very simple slogan. I said, we need to prioritise ‘food, not finance’. That I think is important. We do need to talk about food. We need to ignore the finance because. At the end of the day, people can’t eat finance. People do need food. Let’s get the Maslow hierarchy of needs right here, and we have to meet the essential needs of the UK population if we are going to avoid a crisis.

Absolutely agree here – let’s reduce the burden on imports, remove the DEI and Net Zero requirements for food producers, ignore anything related to LGBTQIA or various other bits of Red tape. Cut Fuel Duty. I’m game for that.

My second observation was that a mother who cannot feed her children is always one of the angriest people on earth. That happened to resonate with another caller into the programme, who was a mother, who was concerned about this very issue. But I didn’t make the observation up to suit her. It was something I first thought of in 2008. And I realised then that I was the parent of young children, and if I was not going to be able to feed them, I was going to be very angry. This is my point. We need to manage that anger because we cannot afford civil unrest.

We already have massive civil unrest caused by the current regime, the worst in human history. Food shortages will simply amplify existing dissent against this government which is the embodiment of pure evil – and the regime itself knows this. Hence it’s desperation to prevent another election, possibly ever.

We have got free market dogmatists who are going to fight any reasonable response to this crisis. They are already making a choice about who they think should bear the cost of what is going to happen, and their choice is to let it fall on those who cannot afford to pay.

The words ‘communist’, ‘statist’ and ‘socialist’ are already being used to dismiss any intervention of the sort I was talking about, like rationing, price controls and market support. But I was not making a party political argument.

But the solutions are still absurd. If this was World War 2 – which it isn’t you might be able to make the kind of intervention happen but as long as people continue to arrive unimpeded with no right to be here and their needs are prioritized over the indigenous population (a policy of which you wholly approve) then the public will to obey such structures will necessary be limited, and there are only so many police available to deploy to ensure compliance.

I was arguing that people need food, heat, and fuel to stay alive. Everything else is incidental after that, and it seems that those who are market dogmatists just do not care about that point. Callous indifference, dressed up as an economic principle, is not an answer to this crisis.

And what all this means is clear. And that is why I’m raising these issues now, time and again, whenever I get the opportunity to do so. This crisis is coming, and the resistance to dealing with it has already formed. Free-market dogma is the ideology of that resistance, and it must be challenged. The alternative to intervention is not stability; it will be disorder, and we need to resist that, and the draconian response it will create from our government, which has the powers to intervene now in ways that I think are deeply antisocial in themselves.

So as with any adherent of the Zack Polanski creed, my objection is perhaps practical. Will we be sending people with warrants into houses suspected of hoarding things? How will the rationing be organized? What is to stop (As they already do with housing) Muslims simply doling out food to their co-religionists? Are you going to censure the Hamas supporters who smash up alcohol as ‘not required’ – who will oversee this? You have the least competent government in British history. One with the ‘Reverse midas touch’ – and yet you want to put them in charge of an operation whose staggering logistical complexity would tax even the most experienced and capable logisticians in the world? Panglossian doesn’t even begin to describe it.

Food, energy, and fuel must be treated as public goods in a crisis and not as market commodities.

We need to prepare for this argument about how to respond to this crisis because it is the argument that will define what happens next in our society. Do we want to get through the coming crisis, or do we want to descend into mayhem, with a lot of casualties on the way?
That is the choice that we have available to us? I think we must take action to prevent ourselves from descending into mayhem

I think actually the aim is laudable but for me the horse has bolted. Decades of unbridled migration mean the social fabric has frayed to such a degree that I think serious disturbances should the scenario outlined come to pass are inevitable. What that leads to noone knows. While a comparison is absurd given the relative strength of the two groups, I fear the Hard Left’s response will mirror that of the SS in Bohemia- Moravia during the Second World War. Knowing they were isolated and cut off from fleeing West they doubled down and simply tried to inflict as much damage as possible. Any Green party or Labour supporter is of a similar level of evil and I can envisage much the same attempt;.

Gamecock
Gamecock
24 days ago

1980 presidential election debate:

Jimmy Carter: “Only government can manage scarcity fairly.”

Ronald Reagan: “Screw that. We’re America. We’ll just make more!”

Commie dick Murphy’s government creates scarcity, then he demands they be rewarded for it by being given control over that which they’ve caused the scarcity. It is commie racketeering.

andyf
andyf
24 days ago
Reply to  Gamecock

Just imagine how the Government would decide if a person or their next door neighbour should get the bigger fuel allowance.

jgh
jgh
24 days ago
Reply to  andyf

Who decides how much space somebody gets for a model railway? Single room bedsit for you, my good chap!

Ltw
Ltw
24 days ago

Face it, the language drift for ‘public goods’ now means ‘stuff that should be provided by the State’. Not the technical definition. The ship has sailed on that one

My pet hate for this type of thing is ‘the exception proves the rule’.

Michael van der Riet
Michael van der Riet
24 days ago

Energy must be treated as a public good in a crisis. Presumably he includes human energy, otherwise known as labor, which can be conscripted by our ***GLORIOUS LEADERS*** as the mood takes them, which it frequently does.

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