No one, least of all the PM, had mentioned Europe, but I asked the gay couple whether they were out, or in. Out of course, they said, scandalised. Independence, proud nation, stand on our own two feet. And me? In. Why? they asked.
Because, I said, you assume there’s something inevitable about society’s progress towards greater equality, justice and freedom, for LGBT people or anybody else. Except there isn’t. Those beliefs have evolved slowly and painfully in Europe and the West since the Enlightenment, and globally they are under threat. The countries struggling to implement them, however imperfectly, need to stand together to defend them if they’re not to crumble under the onslaught of cultures with very different principles.
Islamic State would throw a gay couple off a building to their deaths.
So therefore we should stay members of an organisation which would let some few millions of such homophobes in then? Actually force them upon us at risk of a €250,000 fine?
“We can stand up to China or Russia with the EU behind us. ”
How? After all, we keep being told there’s no intention of creating an army. So, what, we’re going to maybe attack Russia individually, like if we weren’t in?
And seriously, does anyone think that China care if some Belgian blokes knob each other? Is there a communist party announcement about this?
The freedoms we have were mostly won by English blokes some of whom hen decided to become American, and who then helped encourage other places to adopt these same values, partly by repeatedly defeating the frog and krauts, and latterly the commies.
They are self evidently not to be protected by handing over sovereignty to these same powers.
Twat.
“The mood among the 150 milling about in the evening sunshine was less celebratory than entitled…”
Rather a telling description…
We can stand up to China or Russia with the EU behind us.
Until the Germans and/or French decide its politically and economically expedient to throw a lesser nation under the bus in their dealings with Russia.
How’s the investigation of flight MH17 going? How many Dutch citizens dead, most probably at the hands of the Russians?
What Tim Newman said.
+1 for Tim N. If the EU will only stand up for Greek financial stability with gritted teeth, but play nice with Turkey for an easy out with the migrant crisis, I can’t see it taking any principled stance against Russia.
“This is not a good argument for Remain”
There are no good arguments for Remain. Arguments for Remain all seem to come in two types.
(1) “The sun shines out of the EU’s bottom, so we should stay in, because if we leave then the sky will go dark and a pestilence will befall the land.” This sort of argument comes from Guardianistas, and is obviously bollocks. It’s also very light on specifics (and the specifics that are given are very vague).
(2) From the more realistic types we get: “Yes, the EU is a complete disaster and will probably collapse, but we need to stay in because, either (i) things might be even worse outside the EU, or (ii) we can help pick up the pieces when it does collapse and make it more like we want it to be when it’s rebuilt; or (iii) if we’re not in it will be even worse so we have a duty (or perhaps it’s in our self-interest, with them being close neighbours) to make sure it doesn’t get even worse.
None of this has proved to be very convincing. There haven’t been any concrete, specific and positive reasons given as to why we should stay. Just scare-mongering, hand-waving and obviously dubious economic claims.
” Those beliefs have evolved slowly and painfully in Europe and the West since the Enlightenment,”
Mostly in England, Holland and the Scandi counties really.
We can stand up to China or Russia with the EU behind us.
Although they do not like to admit it, the Fascists were big on European Union for precisely this reason. Europeans needed to unite to resist both Godless Soviet Communism and Crass American consumerism. That is why the French volunteers for the SS on the Eastern Front called themselves the Charlemagne Division.
Which is fair enough. Whatever you think about the Nazis they did have a point. Due to Isolationism the choice really was unification or the Soviets. For many the Fascists must have seen the lesser of two evils.
But Putin? Sure he is an ar$e but he is not Stalin. And America? I don’t feel the need to give sovereignty to protect the world from Mickey Mouse. You don’t like the little rat, don’t watch him. Bugs Bunny is much funnier anyway.
> The cavalier foolishness with which Leavers think they can rip Britain out of Europe and yet trust that everything else they value — trade, intelligence sharing, stability, goodwill — will stay the same amazes me.
Does she seriously believe that it’s all just a house of cards which only holds together thanks to the EU?
Trade – doesn’t require the EU
Intelligence sharing – doesn’t require the EU
Stability – NATO provides military stability; Greece proves that the EU abjectly fails to provide economic stability.
Goodwill – Ahh, there we have it. It’s worth sending £x million a year to Brussels to prove how much we like each other. Why not skip the middle-man and buy papal indulgences direct from Rome?
I don’t feel the need to give sovereignty to protect the world from Mickey Mouse. You don’t like the little rat, don’t watch him. Bugs Bunny is much funnier anyway.
I’d prefer the old Hanna Barbera cartoons like Grape Ape or Hong Kong Phooey but our corporate masters decided those shouldn’t be shown.