Let’s stop pretending that paying for sex is anything but abuse
It’s revolting to see men casually boast about how they treat prostitutes — they should be shamed and jailed
Sigh.
Things that are illegal to do to people – beat them up, say, or cheat them – should obviously be illegal for all people. But things that people voluntarily agree to do – rent out a body part for 10 minutes, say – should be legal.
And leaving sex work where it is, legal, means that it’s possible for those who undertake it to report and therefore be protected from those things which are illegal for all people.
Legal prostitution is safer than illegal that is.
Now, obviously, those who charge for sex in a different way might not like the cash but otherwise cost unencumbered supply but that’s just one of life’s little toughies.
It’s also possible to put this a different way. Why should middle aged women be allowed to control the sexuality of other adults?
The latest issue of The Spectator – 20 April 2024 – has an interesting article on page 53 by Lloyd Evans. It describes his visit to a private business location in the rougher end of Cambridge . The Spectator used to be an August publication.
A wry chuckle when I read the bird’s name was Freeman. So much to conjure with…
“And to all the people out there still bleating that sex work is empowering, I presume you’ll be encouraging your daughters to pursue that career path — arguing with dirty old sociopaths over the price of a blow job. Sex work is work!”
The problem with people like Hadley Freeman is that they don’t understand that a lot of these women come from homes where the sort of support that keeps them from having to do this doesn’t exist. Sex work doesn’t look very empowering when your dad works in finance, when you have the sort of life where you moved transatlantic, when you could fart around doing English Lit at Oxford. You’re a million miles from the single mother from a broken home that would like to do something better for their kids than living on benefits.
Because what options do people think that sort of woman has? She won’t easily find a husband, not with existing mouths to feed. She can’t go and be a lawyer – that takes time studying, and even then, how is she going to raise the kids? She could go work in Tesco, but again, someone has to take care of the kids. Prostitution is very flexible in terms of time and you can make a lot of money per hour.
Do women enjoy it? Do they feel grim after doing it? I don’t know. But the point is that they’re making sacrifices for their children. Same as men who put in a few hours of extra overtime per week instead of going to the pub with their mates. And unless Hadley Freeman has a better answer for them, they’re going to keep doing it. And prosecuting men for it, trying to destroy the trade, will just deny those women a choice.
The problem with this sort of troublemaker is how do you define ‘paying for sex’ ?
Only cash? Jewellry? Free rent?
“Wham bam, here’s the cash ma’am” is easy enough, but what about a dating couple in a restaurant?
If he pays the bill, then they go back to one of their pads for ‘coffee’?
Is it different if it’s her paying the bill? Does it only count if it’s a male buying and a female supplying?
Even if they go Dutch, she is still gaining a financial benefit, if she ate the lobster.
Ahem.
Then again, I recall the words of the CoE marriage service….arrest that vicar immediately, for pimping!
I’m all in favour of men not being able to pay for sex. It would make relationships and marriage a lot cheaper. Imagine a society where women were forced by law to pay for half of everything if they were having sex with someone. Bliss!
What an excellent article.
Second, and hear me out here, maybe the degrading thing about prostitution isn’t the name but the act of having sex with men — because it is almost entirely men who buy sex — who don’t see you as a human but as a hole, and one they can buy and do with as they please.
I think she has a point.
Strangely, the sex-work-is-work crowd has been very quiet since The Spectator published a column last week by its massage parlour correspondent and occasional theatre critic, Lloyd Evans, which provides a very different perspective on prostitution. In this, his — by my count — second dispatch this year from a massage parlour, Evans, presumably typing with one hand, describes a recent trip to Cambridge to attend a lecture where he was so turned on by the “beautiful historian” giving the talk that he had no choice but to find a prostitute afterwards.
Lol.
I used to wonder what men thought when they bought sex. Did they convince themselves that the prostitute was enjoying it? Did they get off on the knowledge that she, or he, clearly wasn’t? But that question is naive: the men don’t think about the prostitute at all
That’s true as well.
Anon – did you read her column? She notes:
It’s because people aren’t honest about how degrading and — most of all — dangerous prostitution actually is that we get situations like what happened in 2021, when, in response to an “emerging trend” of students selling their bodies for sex, Durham University offered sex work training to “ensure students can be safe and make informed choices”.
The Smartphone Revolution and Onlyfans plus the collapse of sexual norms means every young woman is now a potential prostitute. And young women aren’t historically famous for making good decisions.
At least Les Misérables down the road has the courage to tell the truth about prostitution through the character of Fantine, who sells her hair, then her teeth, then her body, and then dies. But come on, Fantine, enjoy your sexual freedom!
Damn this girl is on fire.
People used to call me a “Swerf” for saying things like this, which stands for sex-worker-exclusionary radical feminist. But I feel only compassion for prostitutes. It’s the men who abuse them that, I absolutely believe, should be publicly shamed and imprisoned.
I disagree, of course, but I like people who aren’t lukewarm. Hadley has fire in her belly, good for her.
And to all the people out there still bleating that sex work is empowering, I presume you’ll be encouraging your daughters to pursue that career path — arguing with dirty old sociopaths over the price of a blow job. Sex work is work!
Case closed.
Jollygreenman: ha! A family friend got into Oxbridge, and when he came back at christmas he told the story that his tutor mentioned her hubby was a Poet. Being a sucky swat he bought a copy of this guy’s poems, and then big time regretted it when he read one poem describing his tutor’s arsehole in quite a lot of poetic detail, ( a brown bruise quiverred when fucked_ I taste your ambergris, etc etc). He found it quite off putting having that in his head about Teach.
he bought a copy of this guy’s poems, and then big time regretted it when he read one poem describing his tutor’s arsehole in quite a lot of poetic detail, ( a brown bruise quiverred when fucked_ I taste your ambergris, etc etc).
Yes, we were gay all along.
We’ve gone from Racey singing “Some girls will, some girls won’t”
to Hadley opining “No girls are allowed to”
I do like the accidental experiment in Rhode Island where prostitution was decriminalised from 1980 to 2009.
“When Bella Robinson learned indoor prostitution was decriminalized in Rhode Island, she packed up her stuff and moved there from New Jersey. “I can go there and be free, and not worry finally,” she remembered thinking.” in Rhode Island, she felt safer. “If someone tried to rape, rob and assault me, I can report it. I can tell on you,” she said.
And the statewide rate of gonorrhea and rape decreased.
Steve,
Fantine would have died a lot earlier without being on the game.
Not that Fantine was a real person. Fantine was a creation of Victor Hugo who created a book that roughly translates to “the wretched”. Victor Hugo was a similar person to Hadley Freeman, a useless offspring of the productive elite (his father was an army general), born into wealth and doing the Social Justice Warrior thing, without ever talking to the people he was supposedly helping. He probably thought it was fine to not send thieves off to do hard labour because he was rich enough to just have another loaf. Les Miserables is like The Guardian, only it goes on for a long time.
WB – Victor Hugo was a similar person to Hadley Freeman, a useless offspring of the productive elite
I had a quick Wikipedo at Victor Hugo:
Senator for Siene 30 January 1876 – 22 May 1882
Member of the National Assembly
for Gironde 9 February 1871 – 1 March 1871
Member of the National Assembly
for Seine 24 April 1848 – 3 December 1851
Peer of France 13 April 1845 – February 1848
Member of the Académie française 7 January 1841 – 22 May 1885
Writer of The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, Les Misérables and many other celebrated works. Prolific and talented artist who produced over 4,000 drawings. Inspired countless other artists and creators in his lifetime and long after. One of the most internationally famous and celebrated authors of his century.
5 children.
Victor Hugo’s funeral, where he was buried as a hero, was attended by over 2 million people (granted, they were French).
Useless? Or an absolute Chad?
Les Miserables is a great book, once you realise that Javert, not Valjean, is the hero.
As I’ve said before, I have no problem with the consenting adults principle.
However the bird, as usual, seems to want to blame the blokes for everything and give the girls a free pass. Reminds me of the disagreement of a lady when I said I was perfectly happy with banning men from womens toilets, provided we blokes could keep the birds out of ours.
He certainly gets the best song in the musical, Recusant!
Things going out . . .
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/02/an-abortion-at-the-age-of-23-gave-me-freedom
. . . and Hadley’s all in favour of women’s free control over their bodies. So why the big fuss about women’s free control over their bodies regarding things coming in? It’s just a bunch of cells, luv.
Let’s stop pretending that paying for the state is anything but abuse
I thought the service the prostitute provides isn’t that you’re paying for sex, but for her to go away afterwards.
I recall a podcast, Triggernometry I think, which had a former escort on. She said that older men seemed to be quite intent on making she ‘she had a good time’, so to speak. She noted men didn’t go for sexual release alone but for the feeling of closeness.
Something for the ‘ban it’ bridge to ponder and certainly backs up Bongo’s Rhode Island point.
After reading the spectator article I felt sorry for the guy that all he could afford was a chewed up 40 year old battle axe. Maybe the spectator doesn’t pay that well.
Still I suppose he did better that ending up in bed with Hadley
I used to wonder what men thought when they paid somebody to dig a trench. Did they convince themselves that the labourer was enjoying it?
The *WHOLE* *POINT* of paid employment is that it is something you do that you wouldn’t otherwise do in order to fund what you *do* want to to. Enjoyment is irrelevent. I don’t go to work to enjoy myself, I got to work so that I can afford to stay alive. Being. Alive. Costs. Money.
Prostitution comes in so many different shapes and sizes I doubt of any legislation would help.
There’s your drug addict, your single mum, your fading professional and your high class hooker on an hourly rate higher than a city lawyer. There may even be girls who like having sex with strangers and reckon they might as well be paid for it.
On the male side you have your horny young men, divorced blokes who reckon it’s cheaper than a relationship, lonely men who want a bit of company, as well as a few embryonic Peter Sutcliffe types.
It poses a bit of a problem for the parliamentary draughtsmen.
Steve,
I don’t rate Les Miserables as a book. It’s painfully long and tedious, and seems to be approved more for its subject matter and thickness than being a good read. I imagine it was like A Brief History of Time for French people at the time. You stick it on a shelf to look like you read it rather than whatever the equivalent of Sharpe books were at the time.
Note what’s absent from Freeman’s conversation: Drug use.
It’s the libs that are always on about drug use being a victimless crime. Really? Anyone want to make the claim that drug use (leading to addiction) and prostitution aren’t linked.
When people from Freeman’s social strata get hooked on cocaine, they end up in an exclusive rehab facility. When the sort of people Freeman wouldn’t go near get hooked on cocaine, they end giving $20 blowjobs in back alleys.
That has nothing to do with nasty old horndogs and everything to do with the pushing of the liberal lie that dabbling in potentially addictive drugs is something individuals can properly manage.
I don’t rate Les Miserables as a book. It’s painfully long and tedious, and seems to be approved more for its subject matter and thickness than being a good read.
Victor Hugo is right up there with James Joyce when it comes to shit authors that the pretentious claim you must worship. Much like Herman Melville, Victor Hugo never said anything in one page when fifteen pages would do.
“Le plus grand poète français ? Victor Hugo, hélas.” (André Gide)
“It poses a bit of a problem for the parliamentary draughtsmen.”
Not when one size fits all.
Seems to me Freeman has never met a sex worker and shows she is as ignorant as all the “holier than thou, I know best, do gooders” in assuming all sex workers are junkies blowing taxi drivers behind the industrial estate, or busty peasants smuggled in a container.
Having been around the London kink scene for a few years, I have met many a sex worker. The vast majority, meaning 90% of them, were very successful business woman. Often running multiple revenue streams; cam work, custom videos, workshops, escorting, club events, even merchandising.
Zara du Rose and Miss Kim Rub are two of the more famous millionairess driving super cars with property across the globe.
Amazing women that offer a very valuable, in demand, service highly respected by those that use them and mentored by them.
NB: I am on this planet because my grandmother was a sex worker in Weimar Hamburg and I met my wife of thirty years in a Thai bar. When they recruit in Bangkok for Singapore or Tokyo, thousands audition.
Isn’t the Nordic model an attempt to get around the safety issue (women can report without consequence) while still maintaining criminalisation.
Prostitution comes in so many different shapes and sizes…
Pun intended?
I’ll get me coat.
Recusant – Javert was the baddie, because ACAB innit.
Chris – Victor Hugo, hélas.
WB – I don’t rate Les Miserables as a book. It’s painfully long and tedious
Dennis – Much like Herman Melville, Victor Hugo never said anything in one page when fifteen pages would do.
I feel sure all the great 19th c. authors are victims of ça change. Tastes change, not necessarily for the better, and the languorous prose of a Sir Walter Scott or a Dostoevsky – that might have delighted a Victorian gentleman reading by oil lamp – quickly fell out of fashion in the 20th c, the totalising century.
George Orwell is the writer who always comes first to my mind when discussing 20th century literature. Not because he was the greatest writer, but because his writing style was thoroughly modern. So immediate and with such brutal brevity, it suited the changing tastes of people who lived through two insanely catastrophic world wars which drenched the European continent in our blood.
M – NB: I am on this planet because my grandmother was a sex worker in Weimar Hamburg and I met my wife of thirty years in a Thai bar.
Was she working as a waitress in a cocktail bar when you found her?
Meanwhile on Topic
I heard of one local tart who went into prostitution on her own.
She would text a friend after every client to let them know she was ok.
If you criminalise such behaviour, you automatically make said friend guilty of conspiracy and being an accessory. So such arrangements are likely to stop, increasing the risk to plying her trade.
As long as she isn’t bothering anyone, why not just leave her alone to bonk as many men as she wants to sell herself to?
Paywalled, so haven’t read.
Apologies if anyone has already mentioned this, but how does our writer feel about (usually older) women paying (usually younger) men for sex? Or is that just different because it’s just different!
Meisteree –
If anyone is ignorant of the reality of sex work and sex workers, it appears to be you. If your claims are true, then what you’ve seen is the very tip of the iceberg, and you’re drawing some remarkably inaccurate conclusions from a very small sample that is in no way representative of the reality of sex work and workers taken as a whole.
Come on over to The States some time and I’ll be happy drive you down Hudson Avenue in Columbus (and a few other streets here and there). It’ll be fun to watch you point out which ladies that are driving Lambos, holding workshops, and developing merchandising opportunities, and which are blowing truck drivers so they can score a fix . My guess is that the area (chances are we’ll be the only white folk around for a few square miles) and the ladies will scare the shit out of you.
There’s nothing more provincial than a city dweller who thinks he’s seen enough to be considered sophisticated.
philip,
“There’s your drug addict, your single mum, your fading professional and your high class hooker on an hourly rate higher than a city lawyer. There may even be girls who like having sex with strangers and reckon they might as well be paid for it.”
I think that women who do all forms of sex work are generally women who are comfortable doing it. Which isn’t to say they “enjoy” it. but how many colorectal surgeons enjoy fixing up bumholes all day? How many people enjoy working 50 stories up building skyscrapers? All of these people would rather be sat on a beach with an alcoholic drink, but in terms of their jobs, they can tolerate aspects of it that other people can’t. Lots of people faint at the sight of blood. Lots of people would freak out with heights. Why shouldn’t the women who can do sex work be any different? Maybe they’re wired to be OK with being gangbanged on camera, where most women would rather be poorer and working in Walmart?
The article is based on the premise that women are too stupid or helpless to decide for themselves, so the patriarchy (presumably Hadley would say our society is patriarchal) must step in and decide for them. If only there was a position which said that women are the equals of men and get to decide these things for thmselves. Maybe we could call it something like “Womanism”.
Charles – The article is based on the premise that women are too stupid or helpless to decide for themselves, so the patriarchy (presumably Hadley would say our society is patriarchal) must step in and decide for them.
This has been our historical experience, yes.
16 year old gels aren’t good at making decisions involving their fandango tingles. And yet they are capable of getting pregnant. Quite the puzzle for any concerned parent. A healthy society is naturally a patriarchal one, implying that society at large and its leaders take a fatherly concern for the town/city/nation’s daughters and steer them towards becoming respectable married women with children of their own rather than becoming prostitutes, or having a string of sterile fuckboi relationships until she’s a 37 year old HR cat lady with frozen eggs and a Twitter account full of woke bollocks. (You know, if you’re into the whole “having a future” thing we need babbies and stable families are the best environment for the raising of babbies).
Hadley, dear sweet fightin’ Hadley, is coming at this from a feminist angle, but we already know that feminism has failed. The promise of sexual equality was a lie, that’s made women miserable and barren. Equality in general is a lie, because we’re a social species. Social implies hierarchy. There’s no equality in nature, even ant hives are monarchies. Feminism failed for the same reason the USSR did – it’s in defiance of human nature.
You’d want your daughter to marry Fitzwilliam Darcy, is what I’m saying. Not sell her fanny for £100 to some guy who writes for the Speccy. Whether you think prostitution should be legal or not, Dennis is right. The reality of it is grim.
The reality is grim at the crack whore level. The reality is glamorous at the duchess level getting ginger pubes stuck in your teeth. Most are somewhere between these extremes.
On the male side you have your horny young men, divorced blokes who reckon it’s cheaper than a relationship, lonely men who want a bit of company, as well as a few embryonic Peter Sutcliffe types.
From my experience at the management end, the majority of clients have wives or girlfriends. Often they’re proudly pictured along with sprogs on the Whatsapp profile they use to book the appointments. ¯\(ツ)/¯
@Steve
So I suppose women can’t be trusted to vote either??